I was born in 1945 in inner city Manchester. In a city, not a word that was used in those day, it was called a slum district. There I remained until I was about 12 and the my family was rehoused on the outskirts. What was then the boundary of Manchester to a place call Middleton. I am the second of 4 children. I have an elder sister and a younger brother. The youngest is ? 

Education? I had already started at grammar school in the first year at the time that when we had moved and I continued at the same school. Then I went on to university at Cambridge for what would have been 3 years but I spent a year at the University of Madrid in Spain for my modern languages course. So that made 4 years altogether then then after I graduated I had already decided to become a language teacher so I did a post graduate course in education. Specialising in English as a foreign language at the Institute of Education, University of London. The I started work at what was then Kennington College, now part of Southwark College as an ESOL tutor where I became involved, not only in gay politics, but came out as gay. 

Neither my father or mother had had my opportunity for education. My father worked in various lowly occupations such as down the sewers for Manchester Corporation but for most of the remainder of this working life he was a labourer, night watchman, caretaker at an engineering factory. My mother had also been a factory worker in various capacities. The local mop shop as it was called. Wire? Works. Then she became a school dinner lady when we moved to Middleton. There they remained until they retired. 

Higher education? No. The only other sibling that didn't go to a Secondary Modern School was my brother to what was then called a a Secondary Technical School. He then got work with the telephone arm of the Post Office as it was then, not BT (British Telecom). Y elder sister became a secretary at the reception of an office and then she got married and became a housewife for a while. Then she followed in my mother's footsteps as a dinner lady. My younger sister got married very early and now has 3 children. She does mainly voluntary work with charities such as MENCAP. She also has some paid employment within that kind of capacity. But mainly voluntary. 

Religion or politics when growing up? Not significantly. Although in common with any other Church of England families in the local area we used to use our local church as a kind of community and social meeting place getting involved in church activities. But to church regularly, there was no real discussion at home. There was no religiosity or philosophy of religion. We had this fierce working class pride about being C of E as a pose to being those Catholics down the road etcetera but this was a community influence rather than a personal religious feeling and we always voted Labour (laughter).

Immediately after graduating (from Cambridge) I did my PGCE at the University of London. It was really through that experience that I decided to live in London. Not only because that was where the work was but by this time I was beginning to come out as gay and it was convenient personally for me to do that as far away from my family as possible a the time. I never really planned to stay in London but it was simply a question of ending up here. People back in Manchester accepted that this is my home now and not there anymore and have done for a long time. 

When did I first realise I was gay? An interesting question really because when I see programmes about or hear people talking about when they first realised they were gay these days they very often increasingly appear to have a clear age in mind. People say "Oh, I've know since the age of 8 or I've know since I was 14 or something." In those days, I'm talking about the '50s when I became a teenager and through the '60s when I was a student it was a much more difficult decision to make. Always in this constant state of denial. I was aware on various occasions that I was attracted in some way to other boys or other young men but I would always try to explain it away in myself saying that because I didn't have a very high opinion of myself sexually with women I was really projecting my longing to be like these men on to them. So when I would see a handsome young man I would say to myself I am only looking at him because I wish I was like him. Because he could pull the birds, you know. I don't remember having any overtly homosexual fantasies at the time. I do know that I had a very close friend from Primary School who came up to secondary school, different secondary school, who moved up to the same area as Middleton. We use to hang out together. He was my best friend. I slept over at his place and he slept over at mine. We used to sleep together. He introduced me to various wriggly, underneath the bedclothes practices. 

Moving to one experience where he said from under the covers "Malcolm d'you think we are a couple of queers". I said "No. Don't worry about that. It's just a phase we are going through." That was our 14 year old existence at that time. He got himself a girlfriend and I tried various young women in the area who only lasted a couple of weeks or a couple of months. I noticed I wasn't getting as much out of it as he was. Then one night when we were lying in bed together he started touching me up as usual and I felt and I felt we need to get on top of this and do something more. At that point he just froze and "What the bloody hell d'you think you are doing." I went cold and turned off. I realised that we were different. We never talked about it very much. I was about 17 or 18 at that time. Just about to go to university. 

By the way though the university I had the excuse that Cambridge University in those days has a very tiny minority of women among its undergraduates. Very different now of course with all colleges taking people of both sexes. So..the fact that I didn't have a girlfriend nobody noticed because most people were in the same boat part from those who had left girlfriends behind in their home towns. But if got a couple of girlfriends and lost my virginity in my last year basically at Cambridge. When I came back from my year in Spain people fully expected me to come back and say "Oh, yes. I did this, that and the other" and I played the usual games with all the macho lads. But I still hadn't my virginity one way or the other. By the time I did do I thought well, that's me sorted out. Just so you know I was by now 22 years old. 

I decided to come out to myself ... it would be about 1970 when I first saw an advertisement in 'Time out' I think it was. Just before the first edition of 'Gay News' (No. First edition was in 1972). It was from a group called 'Challenge' that met somewhere in Kilburn in a pub called The Cock. Kilburn High Road. It was a ? In this area in this phone box where I picked up a phone and when somebody answered I said "Er, er, er, I think I am er, er er, a homosexual." "Oh yes"...kindly, encouraging, supportive. He told me where to meet so I went along there. About half an hour before the appointed time. I stood at the bar looking around the room, a large saloon bar, where all these men were sitting there at tables. Sometimes with women, sometimes on their own, sometimes with other men. But they all looked quite normal like everybody else. They didn't look at all like my images of what fairies should look like. I didn't think that they were and I had been told to go up this stair case to the upstairs meeting room at 8 o'clock or whatever it was. It was like the staircase out of 'Gone with the Wind'. I thought how the bloody hell am I going to walk up these stairs with all these eyes knowing where I am going. So I had another double brandy to steady my nerves and at 8 o'clock I turned on my heels and went up the stairs to be knocked out of the way a stampede by all these all these people who had been sitting in the bar downstairs. It was a relieving experience though a the time before I had any change to compare it with any other gay organisation I felt that this is not really for me. First of all the pillock who was in charge got on a platform and lectured us all about the importance of being discrete and keeping the good name of the 'Challenge' organisation. Not letting the side down. There was one woman there. She didn't last long. A 'Challenge' man would be expected to set an example for the rest of gay people. Not gay it would be 'homosexual' people. The only good thing that came out of that session was that the first edition of Gay News was there and I could then see where else I could go. That would be early '72. After that I found, I am probably getting a little ahead of your schedule now, that is where I found out where South London GLF was holding its meetings in a library and that was the beginning of the next phase of my life. 

I was living at the end of Ferndale Road (Brixton) nearest to Clapham North when I first had that experience (of SLGLF). I was also teaching a private student, a German citizen, hotel manager at the Shaftsbury hotel at the time which meant that to get there from the tube station I had to pass several gay pubs. I didn't know that they were gay at the time but I saw what was going on inside. I went in and hung around shyly looking behind my newspaper early in the evening. I decided to leave my German student because he used to make homophobic remarks about some of the gay waiters. So I thought I couldn't possibly continue to come here as a teacher. 

I also decided to move house at this time. Not for this reason but ... I moved from Ferndale Road to Acre Lane to share a flat with straight people who didn't know I was gay at the time. People I had met at the local pub. All mates together. It was when I was there that I decided to do some more exploring and found the Father Redcap at Camberwell Green. Found that. Liked it so much that I thought I cannot possibly develop sharing in a straight situation so ... I had the greatest bit of luck at that time in my life in being able to find a self-contained bachelor flat in Brixton at Talma Road which is where I was when I discovered SLGLF. 

The first person I met at the door, when I first went to the SLGLF meeting, was Bill Thornycroft with a cup of tea who gave me a very warm welcome. Immediately I clapped eyes on the people in the room I thought 'This is for me' even before anyone had opened their mouths had said what the organisation stood for. I found myself immediately drawn to them. I should add by the way that before this time I had heard of GLF from going to a CHE conference in Morecambe I think it was. One of their first ones and ... being totally bored by CHE proceedings ... there was a meeting of, I don't know whether it was a meeting of local group, it might have been a representative of a London wide group who had a kind of side show. It was amazing with two young men cuddling each other in an armchair and talking about the ethos and philosophy of GLF. That made such an impression on me and that's why I actively sought them out when I came back to London. When I saw them in Gay News I knew what to expect. I came away with very positive feelings. I decided to get involved and within a week of my first meeting at the Minet library I was, just with one of the guys who was also new like me, a friend of mine who was sharing with me at the time, in Vauxhall Park handing out leaflets about the newly formed SLGLF. What we stood for which was unfortunately in the days before photo copiers. We used to have an old duplicator which was running out of juice and the message on the paper was very hard to make out. Somebody took a leaflet, stared at it, pointed it out to me and said 'No idea what you stand for love. I can't read it.' Mixed feelings about that. I never thought I had it in me within one week of attending my up and out and at 'em meeting there I was in a very vulnerable position but not feeling but not feeling at all vulnerable. 

It may very well have been Kennington Park actually. I know it was my first time in that particular park. Shortly after that I think there was a demo organised in Streatham High Street. For what reason I am very vague at the moment but I know there were about a dozen of us feeling a bit self conscious. Walking up and down the Hight Street pavement with our home made banners. I think it was something about the South London Press. I think they had published something that was offensive to gay people and so we were demonstrating near their site of operation. Shortly after that we went up to Hendon along with other GLF groups in London for a much bigger demonstration against the Hendon Times which had also been deeply offensive in one of its publications. That was a very ? Affair because we were walking down deserted streets, deserted main road. Shouting but with no-one to shout at. We made the point to ourselves. A rehearsal for the battles to come I suppose. Another occasion was when we went to I think it must have been the Lambeth Country Show in Brockwell park. It must have been the summer of 1973 where we set up our fierce little GLF enclave. Pink banners and things. People like Alastair (Kerr) and Bill (Thornycroft). 

Other people at the SLGLF meetings? There was Frank, Dr. Frank whats-his-name. Dr. Frank Adams. Tim Morris. There was a guy called Lee (Hughes?) a young man who lived in the Effra Road area and a man called Terry who was one of the first people involved in the move to the GC but went out of view after that. No idea what happened to him. There were several other people but I can only remember their faces but not their names. There must have been about a dozen people at the meetings.

The only demonstration in Brixton I remember is with the local GLF showing support for black people who had been mistreated by the police. Probably we were a rather curious tag end of what other people saw as strictly a black procession.   

We used to meet at the Oval House after the Minet library. I was only at the Minet library once so it must have been shortly after that. Then we had the upstairs room at the Hanover Arms for a number of months. Then there was the usual problem of, despite the fact that we had negotiated terms with the landlord, landlady, for the use of their upstairs room for for discos back came the usual cry of 'Oh our regulars don't like it. You will have to stop.' i remember being in the lower bar one evening after the disco had finished. I was in a corner with Kay. Kay was being his usual self of course and we had glasses thrown at us from across the room from homophobes in the corner. Presumably regulars. Shortly after that we became more constructive about having our own independence that would be a focus and also would be a place, not a place, an organisation that could be see by whoever wanted to see us. 

I was living in Talma Road by this time and had been for some time and it so happened that my flat was nearest to chosen place for the GC. Discussions had been going on for quite some time about squatting a GC and some people in GLF were also involved in the local squatters group. They had a stake in whatever resources the squatters group had in return for the assistance that we gave to squatters generally. So we had furniture sock piled in a shop on Railton Road just across the road from the designated GC. I think it became the People's News Service but at that time a squatted shop and used as a furniture warehouse. More or less opposite the GC. I remember crossing the zebra crossing at that point carrying our furniture. My flat was used as the planning centre because it was nearest to that site and it was from my flat that fateful night that we set out to squat the shop premises and that was the first day of the existence of the South London Gay Community Centre. I was one of the ones who carried the furniture in from across the road. 

Bill (Thornycroft) was the one who changed the locks and opened the door. This guy Terry who I mentioned earlier but then he dropped out soon afterwards. Lee (Hughes) was there. Alastair, I think, was there. In fact I'd seen Alastair dressed in all his finery and red-lined theatre cape proudly and effulgently outside Brixton tube station and I wondered who he was. Then he popped into the GLF meeting. Anyway he was there. Gary and Colm came along a bit later. We were a group of about 8 people I think. Frank Adams was there as well. 

Discovering which building to squat? We had links to the local squatters as well who kept an eye out ... a street wise neighbourhood watch was what we had available. I don't know who made the decision to use that particular building but I know after we had moved in contact was made with landlords but I don't know who sorted that out. That would have been a matter of the legal procedures. Someone like Bill might have done that. 

First activities at the GC? Alastair and I and one other person, Michael Mason, I'd forgotten about him. We stood for the local council elections (May 1974). Michael Mason was one of the editors fo Gay News and I imagine he was doing this partly from a journalistic point of view. Perhaps to put it in the paper. He also wanted to be seen helping out but it got a bit too rough for him and he went dashing back to wherever he lived. It might just have been a short time after we had moved in when the local elections came along. They came along in May didn't they. 

Canvassing? We went out as far as we could, stuffing envelopes through letter boxes in blocks of flats. Tulse Hill estate. I think we went along to address a local conservative association because we were part of that ward in those days. Not the Streatham one the Lambeth (central?) ward. That is where we met the blue clad Tory woman who Colm Clifford went on to impersonate on the famous election night (count). Brenda Hancock. 

Then after the election we got about 6 votes less that the local Liberals and they got into a panic and sent down their candidate to hear what we had to say. By this time we were having regular meetings in the cellar of the GC. She was to resent Alastair? I remember how she reacted when he made some (relatively sexist remarks?) especially the patronising of women. People had to be physically restrained from going over and bopping him one. She was so smarmy event though she hand gone cap in hand to find out what this phenomenon was as a political party (SLGLF?). [This bit was definitely difficult to decipher]

Shortly after we moved in of course groups of young black men who used to go to the youth club up the road used to come down en masse and pass our place and would collect milk bottles and that were left on doorsteps along the way and that would be the Mary Evans episode you referred to (shielding themselves behind dustbin lids to stop being hit my bottles). Someone was hit on the back of the head. Not seriously as it turned out but it could have been a very ugly situation. We already had one of the windows broken by a young black kid who was chased down the street and caught by Pat Jones who found out where he lived. We had a kangaroo court in the cellar. Looking back on that it was a very unwise thing to do. We wouldn't dare do it in today's climate. He was given a community sentence of coming around to do odd jobs and cleaning up at the gay centre to repent of his sins. Chased him through a betting shop and out the back door. No sure how she found out where he lived but they opened the front door and we talked to the parents. The parents were invited to come along but the local child magistrates (?) forbade him to come along. Certainly an alternative sentence was meted out and generally on Saturday mornings when I was on duty he would do a bit of vacuuming to show that he was taking it seriously.

How did people hear about the GC and come into the area? 

Not just in the area. I think Kay came up from Brighton and returned there after a couple of years. Word just went out all over London really and we were advertising in Gay News of course. Very effective. Many people got more involved though they were in the minority. Some people came along just at the weekends just to socialise. The disco was a popular focus. But it was mainly through Gay News and Gay Switchboard that was giving information to people about alternatives to the rip off main gay scene. 

Re influences from other political groups on our election strategy? No there was never anything that was said at the behest of any other political group let alone the IMG (suggested by Sue Wakeling in a previous interview). Certainly it was going to include, as it says in the manifesto, all the people forgotten by politicians when it comes to a general election. That included pensioners as I recall at the time. Local communities. Making it quite friendly who we were and putting ourselves among that group of people for whom nothing is ever done. But certainly nobody mentioned the IMG. If Sue said that is how she came to be involved she certainly never told me about it and we had a relationship at the time which was another bone of contention which I will come to in due course. 

Sue became my agent and so she had to find out what had to be done regarding running the election. She had a little green handbook on election proceedings. So that was all organised from that point of view. That was a near disaster because we only had the next day to get it all in for it to be valid and the list wasn't completed yet. We put Mary Evans on the list because we thought she wouldn't mind but we didn't realise she was a member of the local Labour Party. She was absolutely furious. She came round ranting and raving 'How dare you. I've been hauled over the coals by the local Labour Party'. This was done in all innocence and with good intentions because we knew she supported us but we just didn't think there'd be a problem. We didn't know about here other affiliations and what it meant. Any way that was part of it. £150 deposit was raised by local donations but there was a large donation. Was it paid by Gay News? I think it was by Gay News at the time. £150 was a lot of money in those days. I think we got about £50 ... Gay News gave us about £100. 

So from the straight procedural point of view Sue took care of all that. As far as advertising is concerned....we didn't do a lot actually. We didn't hold any public meetings. U din't know why we didn't. I think it was because we knew we weren't taking it all that seriously. We just wanted to make an impact of some kind. We had the idea of persuading this young straight man who had a horse and cart and come and do some kind of joke parade around the streets of Brixton. On the morning he was supposed to turn up he had a hangover or something and he didn't turn up. We did hold one meeting in the cellar rather than going out other venues to which only one member of the press turned up although most of the major national papers contacted us as well as the locals. The man from the Daily Telegraph sat at the back very obviously, self consciously keeping himself away from the main group. With his tie. He wrote up a very sneering pieced in the paper the following day. Saying buggers that and buggers this and all the men carried handbags. I remember remarking at the time 'well he had a handbag too. But he calls it a briefcase.' So that was the only kind of public meeting that we had. The rest of it was doing a walkabout in Brixton market where I was collaring various people, some who I knew and those I didn't. Connection with the local community and we had a carnival atmosphere with balloons and things and people weren't really taking it seriously. We were made to look important by being interviewed with a microphone which in fact was turned off. I know I was invited to go along and speak to a radio station. I think it was Capital Radio. Anyway it was a local London radio station at the time. I was on a (?) agenda at the time. I was offered a photo shoot for Vogue magazine. Nothing ever came of that but I was led to a studio, not dressed camply but certainly over the top. I had a hat with a leopard skin band...eye makeup So they were the only two PR sessions. Otherwise it was low key stuff. We tried to steer a middle course to do things properly so that nobody could have any come back officially. We stuffed envelopes and wrote to lots of people in the local community. 

There was the manifesto broadcast which we garbled because of the short time available. The producer was a woman in the background frantically doing the winding up motion and I was only two thirds of the way down the thing so I had to I had to cut it off before we got to the end anyway. I reckon it must have been about 100 words a minute by then. It sounded very strange. 

Memorable people or events? Coming into contact with all sorts of exciting new ideas which was the highlight of that whole period for me. Not so much talking about mainstream politics but but more gay and sexual liberation politics. All part of examining relationships and addressing things like jealousy and possessiveness. Taking into account things coming from the Women's Movement at the time and other movements like Black people, local and international issues. We found ourselves getting out of our depth by putting our irons in too many fires at once which I realise is a valid criticism. In retrospect we should have been a bit more limited in our policies. But....seeing a variety of people and that place (GC) and everything it was doing was attracting. An alternative community event but not only confined to the community. People? Well, Sue (Wakeling) obviously. Alastair (Kerr), Gary and Colm. 

Main bone of contention around relationship between me and Sue? The main bone of contention in retrospect was a rather unwise decision to have a reflexive kiss on camera. We had been at a policy briefing with members of the ... I don't think there was the press but certainly there was a photographer there. Up to that point Sue had been introduced and up to that point had been acting as my agent and there was I the front man for the gay election campaign. At the end of the session Sue and I sort of hugged and kissed. Gary was incandescent with rage but we couldn't understand what he was on about. It was know that Sue and I were having an affair. Nobody had mentioned it up to that point. But in Gary's words "What are the little old ladies in Hythe and Romney going to think when they see, instead of their worst fears being confirmed, as in two men in passionate embrace in the Worthing Echo front page...instead of that they are going to get a man and a woman kissing. What kind of message about gay liberation is that going to take to them. That was the main bone of contention. Of course at the time I referred to the influence on me and on many other people of the of the interplay of sexual liberation politics and part of that was not limiting oneself or channeling oneself into this or this or this. The fact that I was having an affair with a woman despite the fact that I was also having an affair with two men plus one night stands with unmemorable strangers, all male, didn't come into it. I had committed the cardinal sin of by then being a high profile gay who had a sexual affair with a woman. Seen to be letting the side down old chap. Publicity around this came to a head but there had been a lot of muttering and whispering going on about the fact that we had a relationship at all which Sue and I pooh poohed. They should mind their own bloody business. 

For me being gay at the time meant being true to yourself. It wasn't just about being homosexual. The main strand of being true to yourself was about homosexuality but I refused to say that being gay meant that you only did this for the rest of your life. Look what happened to Derek and Mary Evans. They each (?) became gay after all that business. Gay and lesbian but it works both ways. I still think wryly about this controversy. Too much was made of my relationship with Sue. The person I was most deeply in love with was a young person called John who I met at Cambridge. It wasn't a very happy relationship for various reasons I won't go into now but there was also Paul who came onto the scene soon after that and as I say I was a gay 'slapper' (promiscuous) at the time. You know, one night stands. Regular visits to the clap clinic like everybody else. But nobody ever took that on board as a balance. It was always seen as Malcolm letting down the side. Malcolm is a hypocrite in some way which I deeply resented. I would hate to go down in this corner of history as somebody who didn't have the courage of his convictions. 

Divisions happen in every radical or revolutionary movement in history. That's how it was. 

Inevitable when something brand new when as many opinions as there are people come together. It was a question of finding the right level of dialogue and balance between them. Unfortunately there were many vested interests around at the time. As manifested by the place being taken over by the those who simply wanted to use it as their front parlour. They didn't see any point in all this politicking. The hierarchy versus the nerds. Us and them.

Effra School? There were those who performed Mr. Punch's Nuclear Family' and although the audience was somewhat bemused it was very well received at Effra. I remember distinctly feeling that at Villa Road there was some other, at least from one quarter, gay men. There was less than the warmth and brotherly solidarity in their attitudes that you otherwise might expect from people who label themselves as radical, squatting, political people. That was a bit of an eye opener because we had been well established by this time and we were the only gay group that was a member of the alternative community. So that left a nasty taste in my mouth and taught me to be aware of so called radical straight men after that. 

Effra school again. A family, local community festival and there were all kinds of things to do mainly for children. We had either by invitation or by negotiation found ourselves there to perform street theatre which we had been preparing for some time and it went down very well even though many people, quite rightly because it wasn't within their experience, found some difficulty in comprehending at least as we were intending it to be comprehended. That unfortunately caused some offence among surprising people who we had every reason to believe were on our side. It was rather a shock. The reasons why the had taken offence was as if they had not understood from the start what we were on about. Therefore we wondered why they'd be supporting us. I am of curse referring to the incident about physical attack by Mary (Evans) on Carol (Parris). Putting it a bit dramatically but it was a slap. It was a physical attack when she remarked that we really should not be doing this in front of young children. Not just about the street theatre but being ourselves outside that situation. Walking around and holding hands. Camping it up. Exchanging kisses. Sometimes genuine ones, sometimes political ones. I think it came to a head when we painted over the stereotyped male and female figures. Carol wasn't the only one to object to us doing this our to ask why we were doing this. When we explained why she lost her temper and we explained...can't you see what it is doing. Reinforcing heterosexual stereo types about men and women. She said 'Don't you think yo are going over the top by doing the opposite'. Or words to that effect. She was actually arguing against us being open, overt and proudly gay in public. I suspect it was an excuse of their being young children around rather than saying I don't like it or I find it embarrassing. Using children and adults to project their own inadequacies. To project them on to kids. The kids were just lapping it up and enjoying it. They had no idea what was going on. It was just a big fun day out to them. 

We did go out to talk to various groups of people. I remember very early on when I first joined GLF being with Gary and I think Alastair was there and one or two others we went to talk to a group of people ... where was it now ... some community hall. It wasn't Lambeth or Brixton. It was Streatham I think. We were just there for people to ask what gay liberation was all about. Very interesting because it was my first time in public speaking as a gay man. After that Alastair and I ... there was a very young woman, very thing. What was her name. Very short hair. She would have been about 16 I think. She had come out as a very out lesbian at the time although she lacked experience of life generally. 

We went along to address a young peoples club somewhere in a leafy suburb of South London just the three of us and that went down very well. I appeared like a late developing hippy. I had my long hair at the time. So we were more or less patted on the head about what we had to say. People enjoyed what we had to say and laughed at the absurdities of our relative situation. Such as on the bus arriving there we looked out of the window and saw these rather interesting young men walking along the street and we'd blow kisses to them from the top deck of the bus. Provoking quite a barrage of abuse. If we had been girls blowing them kisses they'd have been very flattered. If you are being flattered what does it matter what sex you are. 

Any schools or colleges visited? No I didn't do anything like Julian at Tulse Hill school. My involvement with education was about adult education which is a separate kind of thing. It first started when I began teaching at Kennington College which is now part of Southwark. It was in my first year of being in South London GLF and there had been a policy decision made by the NUS to have a gay representative in each of their student union bodies all over the country. I made enquiries in my college to find out if such a thing had happened and there wasn't one. So I decided to set up the GLF education groups which was advertised in Gay News and attracted people from far and wide. My little flat in Talma Road...sitting on the floor and all over the place where we decided what the priorities should be. Two meeting but the second one wasn't as well attended. People drifted away. I wasn't involved with the schools aspect at the time. It was about further education. Teenagers and older people. 

I sent out an anonymous or how do yo say nom de plume ... because I was testing the waters and it was dangerous times for teachers in those days. I sent out a questionnaire to several education authorities all over the country but nobody else replied apart from the ILEA. They didn't return the questionnaire which was highly detailed. They said we don't have a policy of answering questionnaires but we will state our overall policy ... that we have no policy of discrimination against homosexuals teachers. This was before the John Warburton affair. 

Shortly after that the idea was put to me, I think by Frank and Gary, to go along to the nearest education centre and approach the Principal with the view to putting on some kind of gay studies course. Being in further education I didn't realise there were different kinds of adult education places in operation at that time. The place we went to, The Cowley Institute, wasn't called an adult education institute it was called a recreational institute and was bound by a different set of rules and procedures from the normal adult education institute we came to know later including the Lambeth Institute. Nobody pointe it out to me that if I had gone to a place like Lambeth it probably would have been more successful because there was a more direct route to the decision making process at County Hall. It was unfortunate for us that we went to a place which had a rather convoluted contact system. I went through various sub committees before it got to the top. As a result of that we had a disastrous interview. This was Frank and myself. There were only two of us with the education officer whose name I can't remember. We stated the rationale of what we wanted to do. I said that because of all the ignorance and prejudice that gay people find themselves surrounded with among those who ought to know better. That is the professions and vocations that frequently come into contact with and pontificate about gay people such as the medical profession, the legal profession, social services etc. Don't you think there should be dome kind of publicly funded educational course to give these people the facts rather than just continue the time honoured practice of handing down one set of prejudices from one generation to the next. 

I don't know how suddenly it started to go wrong but I think it was when we said we were going to do it ourselves because we were the people who were involved with other people who had done the research, with people who were directly affected by this. I think the idea that to be seen to be using public funds to pay social outcasts, homosexuals, to spread their filthy word...a definite no, no, in those days. So we were told very patronisingly at the end that there's nothing to stop us from setting up our own course but don't expect ILEA to pay for it. Their wilful failure to understand our motives for wanting to set up such a course. They saw it as propaganda.

There was a whole ILEA campaign called 'An Education for the Whole Community'. When we drew attention to that there was no attempt to even to defend their own side of the argument that they didn't see us as being part of the greater community They may have not used the word sectarian but they meant we were a narrow interest group. The anti-Monarchist, anti-vivisectionist thing obviously came from them. So, yes, they may well have used those spurious comparisons. 

Camberwell magistrates court? Yes, Gary de Vere and Bill Thornycroft who were taking a political stand about paying their rates to Lambeth Council on the grounds that public money raised by the rates to benefit the whole of the community. Not only were the gay community not receiving any specifically directed assistance from the Council but also our own money was being paid into organisations such as the police and others that were actively harassing us and discriminating against us in other ways. Therefore until this situation is rectified they would be withholding payment of rates. They would refuse to pay. They would withhold payment until an assurance was given that something more positive was done about addressing gay people in Lambeth. But of course the magistrate didn't want to hear all this. Bill got cut short. I think Gary went on first and got a right ticking off. A more acerbic style than Bill. I think he must have put the magistrate's back up so that when Bill tried to say the same thing more or less but in different words, he was cut off after the second or third sentence I think. What happened after that I don't know. Whether they did pay up or not. I should imagine they did. Oh, yes, we went as Queens in Furs. I remember being told to take my bobble hat off by an officious court official. We were told not to laugh or talk. 

I remember having a confrontation with that mad Cypriot guy who was terrorising us at the time. Anastase. We knew where he lived. He lived just off Talma Road. Mervan Road. That's where he and his family lived at the time. They ran a shop somewhere. His father did. It might have been a take away shop or something. I think after a 'council' meeting at the GC it was decided that it would be dangerous for men to go around so women went to see his parents. One was Mary Evans and one was Pat Jones. I don't think Sue was there at the time. But they had words with the family but it didn't really do any good in the end. 

Shortly after that I was attacked on my way back from college. By him and one of his English mates. I was walking down Mervan Road going home to Talma Road and out he popped from his house on one side of the road. I became aware of the other guy. I took off my belt. A wide leather thing with a big iron buckle to hit them with. Swinging it in my hand, ready. He said 'You're not going to touch me with that' and I said 'Well don't give me any reason to'. He backed off and I started running. They threw dustbin lids at me but I got away unscathed. But it didn't work. It was shortly after that they had made themselves general nuisances in the area and that they had been forced to move by their neighbours anyway. 

The mad axe man? I wasn't there on the first occasion but on the second. It was a fairly packed room in the evening. Suddenly the door opened, we'd heard about this mad axe man, but no-one had actually seen him for themselves and didn't know what he looked like. In came this stranger who looked a bit strange but we were quite used to dealing with strange looking people at the time so nobody thought much about it until his normal conversational tone started getting more excited and loud. He produced this axe which he started waving in the air. It was Micky Burbage who was sitting nearest to him. Everyone was wondering what to do. Looking at each other in dead silence. Micky tried to reason with him and asking him to sit down. It couldn't have lasted more than three minutes but it felt like a couple of hours as he was standing there with the axe in his hand. Then he suddenly turned and ran out. Then we called the police. Because we had had serious conversations with the police including getting their, for what it was worth, local community officer to come and talk to us on a couple of occasions. Can't remember his name. They did at least tell us they were taking it seriously and I think he was caught in the end. That was the only time we were actually in danger within the gay centre itself. He didn't actually hurt anybody but everyone was terrified about what might have happened. He hadn't lost control of himself otherwise he would have started lashing out with it in his hand and swinging it round his head.

Addison institute and teaching? My gay studies course was in the 1974/75 prospectus. I was informed that the homosexuality course had been turned down and in the first instance the one on Women's Liberation and Astrology. The Women's Liberation one went ahead but only with a change in the wording of their publicity blurb which presumably had been watered down from what they had wanted to say. But there were no such reprieves for the other two courses. One of the reasons I got to know as to why they had turned it down was because it was I who was to be leading the sessions and in view of my earlier experiences at County Hall with the ILEA inspectors they had definitely decided that I was not to be appointed to that position because of the views I held on homosexuality and other related matters. It is interesting though that with the help of David Neuman who was the community education officer who was fighting within the Addison Institute against ILEA and with his own colleagues and Principal, the decision was made in the following year to put on the course. As you will see in the prospectus for 1975/76 the publicity blurb is considerably watered down from the original. All the innovative approaches have been completely taken out and the whole thing has been run for the benefit of medics and social workers and vicars. The stipulation was that if it was to go ahead it must not be Malcolm Greatbanks to be leading it but somebody more respectable. So Barry Kenyon form the (?) and the ultra respectable Campaign for Homosexual Equality was the person designated to lead the session. That did not stop me from attending by the way as a fee paying student which I did. I attended all six sessions which were of a moderate success. Most of the people there were straight and in at least two of those six sessions another ILEA inspector sat in presumably to make sure there was no hanky-panky going on among all us practicing homosexuals. He deliberately pushed his chair three fee behind the circle everyone else was sitting in and that was the last we hear of it. Until sometime later having left my full time job at Southwark College I applied to become a supply teacher. I was given my first post at a secondary school in Lewisham and I was in there for one week because apparently ILEA has seen my name on a list and had telephoned the Head to dissuade him from employing me any further because of my record as a practicing homosexual and a gay activist to boot. This was tragic for the school. I was a teacher there because the classes that I was teaching had already suffered from three changes of teacher. It was only October by this time and to get rid of a teacher they (pupils) had come to like within one week for such a petty reason I felt was unforgivable. But leave I did. I went on to get adult education evening work at the Kensington institute through the offices of an old colleague of mine who was then head of department at ESOL. Shortly after that I was in the Principal's office where he demanded I remove my gay libration badge. Ire fused to do so but nevertheless I was allowed to carry on teaching and shortly after that I received a letter from ILEA saying that they were permitting me to continue with my existing programme. But for a limited time subject to review which was reviewed as my work load increased as a part timer at that particular institute. Then I went on to become a full time worker at that institute and ILEA had no alternative but to say that I could continue indefinitely. It would have been a great loss of face for them to attract publicity by refusing to renew my contract. After that I had no further trouble. After that the GLC under Ken Livingstone came into power. I met Ken Livingstone at a party and I told him what had happened to me. He said He would investigate and make sure I wasn't on the grey list. That's what he did and he wrote to me and told me I wasn't. I got myself a full time job at the Lambeth Institute where I remained for ten years as Head of Department. 

How did you find out the real reasons why you were sacked? It was because the deputy head had overheard the conversation between the headmaster and the official at County Hall and stated that the reason why I was being removed was I was homosexual and this is a measure of the affection, admiration and esteem the headmaster was held not only by his staff but his deputy was also know to be a rampant racist and fascist.